Sorry for the late reply, your post came in to my spam folder for some reason - probably my overzealous filters more than anything else.

I would like to point out that none of my posts involved any personal attacks, nor have I suggested that the campaign against the competition is illegal, except that some have suggested denial-of-service against the websites that this competition and it's promoters are using, which is a crime, and crimes are, by definition, illegal.

However, I understand where the campaign is coming from. I respect what you're saying, and your right to say it - but at the same time I respect The Rock's right to hold this competition, as it breaks no laws - it is, however, ethically questionable, but this doesn't come in to play when we take in to account the many comparisons made to slavery, human trafficking and so on.

I'm all for the equal rights of women, men AND transexuals, however when some people are promoting misandry and inequality (in favour of women), I can't get behind that, because that makes women as bad as any chauvanist.

My argument has always been based on the lack of evidence behind many of the arguments presented and in all cases all I have asked for is that the people check their facts before posting. If they ever wanted to take this through the legal system, they'd be laughed out of any self respecting lawyers office for basing the complaints on fallacies.

I even offered one person a flight to Ukraine (as I have business ties to the country) but she did not take me up on the offer as yet, although I have enquired to my Ukrainian agency. To each her own. C'est la vie. Et al ad infinitum.

At the end of the day, what you should have done - and this is just my opinion, so take it or leave it - don't censor opinions, ESPECIALLY when they are [I am] presenting actual facts based on experience and solid evidence (I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you're the moderator also known as "Scube" - be sure to correct me if I'm wrong), and be diplomatic about the whole thing. Be absolutely clear about what it is you actually have a problem with. Don't present baseless arguments - make sure you have absolutely solid evidence to back it up.

Your Facebook page says that you hate politics but believe me, taking the same rules applied to politics and the law and applying them to any cause in which you sincerely believe is the best way to win any argument. I sincerely hope that you have read and comprehended all of the posts on my page - as I mentioned, I'm on the side of the anti-win-a-wife campaign to a certain extent, and I thank you for taking the time to write.

Regards

Mathew

Kia Ora Mathew,

The whole - please do not make personal attacks - comment is because of the several days of - "
This is the site for the 'sad and pathetic.' If you don't like the comp then just don't listen to the radio stations you pack of knobs!"
And
"Get the fuck over it. It's not slavery, go read into the actual terms of the competition. Pull your head out of your feminist asses and get a sense of fucking humour."

Everyone has the right to disagree with others and just the rock, the anti-page are not doing anything illegal.

Juuuuuuust in case you're all wondering, the comment she alluded to is on this page: http://www.mathew-carley.com/cms/about

...where I also say things like
"If someones standing in line in front of me at the cafe, and they can’t decide what they want in the half an hour it took to get to the register, I should be allowed to kill them."
and
"While some people drink at the fountain of wisdom, others merely gargle"
and
“The only difference between the women I’ve dated and Charles Manson is that Manson has the decency to look like a nut case when you first meet him.”

...not to mention some actual gems like "Happiness is only real when shared."

Ergo, my telling her to take a fucking joke. You be the judge.

Hi Rachel,

Mon, 14 Feb 2011 08:35:11 +1300 ?????? ?? "Rachel Hansen" < @gmail.com >:

Hi Mathew,

I have done a quick skim-read as have a toddler needing attention

1. You have obviously got my blog mixed up with someone elses blog, because your comments are there in full.

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They weren't at the time. If it is up there now, it is muchly appreciated.

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2. I have no idea what you are talking about re. comments being deleted. There are five moderators, all of whom I trust their judgement. I was doing a triathlon over the weekend and my contribution to the moderation was minimal, so all this stuff you are spouting on about has me rather confused. Your name was not familiar, so I am assuming I didn’t see your comments. If they were deleted, I am glad I didn’t see them.

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I'm sure you are. As it turns out, it may be such that my angst should instead be directed at your moderator "Scube". I'm sure you will find however that they were NOT offensive. I have pasted screenshots of every single thing that I wrote at http://www.mathew-carley.com/cms/2011/02/the-rock-win-a-wife, which includes ongoing dialogue with others.

—————————————————————————

3. I am against a competition to win another human being, like they are a commodity. (I have not personally/publicly taken a stand on intl. dating agencies etc. I am still considering where I stand on that).

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Whilst I admit that the name of the competition is poorly worded, this is not what the radio station is offering.

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4. This is nothing particular about Ukraine. (Although we have the full support of the Ukranian community). The same issues would be there if it were “win an aboriginal wife” etc etc etc.

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I'm sure you do, but it is about the representation of their country, not about anything to do with the individuals per se. I can't see any active participation on your group from anyone with even a vaguely Eastern European name. Please point me in the right direction so that I may see for myself.

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5. I wouldn’t accept money/favours from a complete stranger to head to a foreign country. That would be plain stupidity.

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I'm not sure what you mean by this. Nobody is accepting money/favours from anybody, and if you really think that my offer was not genuine, then that's your own thing - there's no reason your Husband and Child(ren) couldn't go with you - it could have been a mind-opening experience.

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6. Given your statement on your website: ‘Government Health Warning: women can seriously damage your brains, genitals, current account, confidence, razor blades, and good standing among your friends’, I have garnered some understanding of your beliefs. (And am laughing at the irony of you calling me a man-hater!)

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This isn't a statement on my website, this is a quote from somebody else, more specifically, something from a joke email. The simple fact is, due to my own misfortune in relationships gone by, I can relate to this: I HAVE had women affect my life detrimentally to this effect, but if you seriously think that this what I believe for ALL women, you are seriously deluded.

If I was a gay man having come out of a gay relationship at the time that this was copy-pasted, then it would have been modified from "women" to whatever I would call a gay partner. My point? LEARN TO TAKE A FUCKING JOKE. If you can't laugh at yourself, then I'm sorry but you must be a very sad person.

Furthermore, as it turns out, it appears my comment about being a misandrist could have been misdirected, and should have been pointed at one of your other moderators, Scube, which if you actually READ the comments on the posting I think you'll find that I even pointed this out with a semi-public apology, although I didn't send one directly to you because I'm not sure that it would have sounded sincere enough to be taken seriously.

You seem to forget that I think you and I at least, to a point, have some common ground, a point which I mentioned in many of the posts, and for a while there, I felt we were on the same side. It saddens me to now understand that this is not the case.

—————————————————————————

J

This is the last email from me.

Regards, Rachel

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Be sure I'll be posting this email in it's entirety.

They're not thinking. They're not investigating. They're like chooks in a barnyard squawking because they thought they saw a cat. They're doing everything possible to prove the brainless stereotypes of emotional illogical women. I would seriously doubt that even one of them has suffered loss or injury at the hands of a perverted male. I doubt that even one of them knows what it is like to not be able to feed a child. I doubt that even one of them has befriended a prostitute, to hear her life story, and her perspective on the men who need her services. And I still don't see a single person of 'the multitude of cultures' supporting this page - especially from the Ukraine. Their politics is actually offensive to the gay community, Maori, and I would suspect ANY bride of foreign origin married happily or not to a New Zealand man. Their attitude is deeply insulting to the women they are flapping on about, and pretending to feel so much for. They wouldn't have a CLUE!

Whetumarama Tuhua

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...as I was saying!

Mathew Carley

(following on from the comment ending with "I'm sure Rachel and I have some common ground on the issue.")

Yes, I believe so. I felt quite sad when I read her reply about Ukraine being one of the places she'd love to visit, and then just cutting out. Although I do appreciate that she does have other calls on her time. I just see that though as a bit of sensible boundary setting, just as you limit who you friend on facebook (I'm privileged!) If I knew her a little better (eg if she WAS my daughter) I'd give her an earbashing about burning bridges and buggering up awesome opportunities. Tell you what I will be having a sneaky gossip with my daughter about it. I did before I encountered you, after my first look at the page - I think my daughter's the smartest of the lot of us. Apart from the obligatory 'like' for a mate's sake, she kept out of it, except to comment on my wall that she'd read some of the competition applications (which I haven't yet - must have a nosy) and that the guys weren't after love, they were after cooking, cleaning and sex. And I know enough of the poor sods that just don't get it that they're never going to get a Mummy and a Prostitute all wrapped up in a wife package. Now a woman and a Goddess SURE - as long as the fella is a hero and drop dead gorgeous. Not many of them around. Oh - sorry - present company excepted of course!!
And yep that's right 50 plus plus!!

Whetumarama Tuhua

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Oh dear. These girls just don't get it - now one is saying that the competition discriminates against married people. So either she is advocating extra-marital affairs or she's just not understanding the legal issues involved (that is, legally speaking, a married man would not be eligible to get married in the Ukraine - OR New Zealand because when one applies for the appropriate documentation to get married overseas, one has to supply a document from the home country that he/she is in fact not married). It's a real headbanger. https://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=125406027531398&topic=37&post=198...

Mathew Carley

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...oh and it discriminates against gays and lesbians. Unfortunately, that's also a legal thing. To the best of my recollection, Ukraine does not recognize same-sex marriage.

Are they just annoyed that they can't enter the competition?

Mathew Carley

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Oh that's just too gorgeous Mathew!! You're a very naughty boy going and spying on all the girly conniptions!!! So did you go and moderate my comment on your website? Or are you gonna delete me?!!
I just had the most delightful time talking to my Tane about all this, and I can tell you Mathew he's right on sides with you too - as a sensitive New Age Man!! Funny - so we were cracking up about the way my sisters and I make war (you fellas don't actually stand a chance, cos we fight dirty!) - you know we go and club road kill to death, then we stomp around and around the vermin, then we go back and kill it again. Then we go and get all our sisters, and we all go back and pulverise that thing again. And you blokes have the cheek to tell us to be sensible - or worse yet youse LAUGH at us!!!

Whetumarama Tuhua

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Actually, I only went to check what was written because I had some messages from Facebook telling me that people had replied. My post is still deleted, yet I get notified of updates. Rich, eh?

Mathew Carley

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Yeah - well its under the Causes page, so I'm not sure if they are actually able to block adherents and followers - but an admin. can bang the x on anything. That was the best example yet I thought! I followed your example and took a screen shot - that's one for the archives! The top three benefits of having a wife, and what was the greatest length or stupidest thing you ever did in the hope of scoring a particular girl - according to this dimwit those questions can only be answered accurately by heterosexual, unmarried men?!! Does that mean a man loses his mojo upon marriage? Or his tongue, memory, and brain? Oh, good grief pul-leeeaz!

Whetumarama Tuhua

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...Or worse, that the woman will lose her mojo upon becoming married! I'm sure a lot of women like having sex as much as us blokes do.

Mathew Carley

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Precisely. That was the whole point of women's liberation, to get that message out there, that it is ok and desirable to have an orgasm. Frequently!! That it is okay to grieve over a miscarriage. That it is okay to be like Linda Lovelace with our men and how to do it! (Deep Throat in case you don't know that interesting bit of our history!) So these prissy pi pussies are the heirs of our hard won freedom to love and be loved by a man? or a woman. But you know, if I was to waste my energy challenging these lassies, or bringing the BALANCED perspective of Maori to the discussion, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the bitch fight would be ON! And I don't care to be scratched by painted nails and stilletto heels.

I've done it now. Messaged Jason who is a presenter with Rock, just cos he was nice enough to like my post!!! If he responds I'm going to direct him to your website Mathew. That'll make great headlines - why didn't we think of that before!

Whetumarama Tuhua

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Hehe... I watched a few minutes of that movie some some friends a few years ago and got bored after about 15 minutes, so we switched to something else equally bad (but not pornographic).

I wrote to a couple of the other girls (non-moderators) through Facebook messaging to point them at my page so that they may get a fresh perspective.

What's really worrying is that these same girls who are talking about womens rights and the right to think for themselves clearly aren't doing that. How exactly is blindly following a woman and confirming to her way of thinking really any better than blindly following a man?

I'd have thought that any self-respecting woman (or man, for that matter) should look at all sides of the story and come up with their own opinions based on the whole picture, not just what they're fed by the "leaders" of this group (or more particularly, as it has been pointed out, "Scube").

Mathew Carley

I emailed Leah Panapa and Tracey Donaldson through the Rock website contact forms. I received the following reply back from Leah:

From: Leah Panapa []
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 6:00 AM
To: Sian []
Subject: RE: Website Feedback: The Morning Rumble

Hi Sian,

I think everyone has got wound up in the wording.

The guy who we pick will join a group that will travel to the Ukraine.

All the guys have been corresponding with the women, when they get there they get the chance to meet, if they don't like each other - more importantly if the woman doesn't like him, he comes back to NZ,...she stays where she is.

There isn't a room of Ukrainian women tied up that a kiwi guy will just chuck over his shoulder and drag back to New Zealand.

There are still arranged marriages that go on in the world where the two don't get a say at all!

So I think, if people didn't concentrate so much on the words WINNING A WIFE..... They don't have to get married - I suppose that is the crux of it.

Thanks for your email.

Leah

I replied:

From: Sian []
Sent: Monday, 14 February 2011 10:24 a.m.
To: Leah Panapa []
Subject: RE: Website Feedback: The Morning Rumble

Hi Leah,

Thanks for your reply, and your explanation of the competition.
Fortunately, I do understand what the competition actually involves. And to be honest, I think it is important to worry about the words "win a wife". The competition may be light hearted by nature, but marketing women like this is not a joke.
This wording suggests that women are a commodity that can be purchased, given away, won, and potentially exploited. And just because something exists (e.g. arranged marriages) that doesn't make it ethical.

I watched a documentary on national geographic last night titled "email order brides". It was about agencies very similar to "endless love agency", who provide marriage services between Eastern European women and American men. The interviewer asked the American agency owner why his clients require his services. He replied that American women are too into being equal all the time, whereas Eastern European women like to be treated like women, because they haven't experienced the feminist movement.

Do you really believe that this competition is not sexist at all, in any way?

Kind Regards,

Sian

To which she replied:

I'm totally happy with the competition Sian, I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

Thanks

LEAH PANAPA

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Hi Sian,

I'm somewhat concerned about your post at https://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=125406027531398&topic=37&post=198...

You didn't post your original message to the rock (only the subsequent dialogue), so I'll try my best not to take anything out of context.

While I think the competition is ethically questionable, I've opened up a dialogue at http://www.mathew-carley.com/cms/2011/02/the-rock-win-a-wife/comment-pag... which expresses concern at, and debunks, some of the myths that are being perpetrated by the moderators of this group (well, one in particular anyway).

Yes, the words "win a wife" do have some negative connotations, but I see nobody raising issues with colloquialisms such as "win her heart" and "give the bride away" (as it is used when the father gives the bride away at the wedding) and so on.

Even Leah's view on arranged marriages is, for the most part, slightly outdated, at least in urban areas of India and it's neighbours (though unfortunately I can't comment on Africa). I'm all for Arranged Marriages when it comes to how the society functions - I live in India, and they do have an exceptionally low divorce rate. For the individual, it's not as good, because obviously when most marriages are arranged, it's difficult to tell what the husband will be like in the future (as it pertains to the violent types who beat women and so forth - again, not a good thing. And these days, the bride can say "no" to an arranged marriage if that isn't what she wants (I'm marrying an Indian girl who has done exactly that, as did BOTH her mother AND grandmother).

I also saw the documentary on NatGeo last night - which I hope gave you some more idea about what really goes on. While there is SOME truth to the Eastern European ideals being different to those in the west, it's probably taken out of context. The fact that they want to be treated like women is not necessarily a bad thing in the way that you might be anticipating. European women are still well educated (often better than American ones), they still have jobs, they can still be fiercely independent.

If you look at the situation of women in these countries over the last 30 years, they would follow relatively closely the situations of women in the west, HOWEVER, the main difference is that they have no desire to act like men. This is a key difference.

Naturally, I send this message to you with the best of intentions, I hope this helps clarify further some of the more specific things I can comment on based on my own experiences in travelling in and living in these countries.

Regards

Mathew

Kira Duda
The other side of this issue is of course that it is only open to straight unmarried men. They may be targeting a male audience, but I'm pretty sure they are not allowed to actively exclude women, homosexuals and marrieds from their promotions. I have raised the following complaint with the Human Rights Commision. (I hope it sounds OK, I was busy with other things while I was writing it. Multitasking!) The form is here http://hrcnz.wufoo.com/forms/how-to-make-a-complaint-online/

The Rock radio station is running a competition to "Win a wife". Their website expressly says that this competition is only open to people who are unmarried, hence this competition is discriminating against married people. Also, the prize is a wife, to be chosen from Ukrainian women who are looking for a husband, so this offer is only valid for heterosexual men, therefore it is also discriminating against sex and sexual orientation.
The Radio station and it's supports are defending the prize as a trip to Ukraine, with the opportunity to meet a partner, however the criteria to enter the contest involves answering a series of questions such as "What do you see as the top three benefits of having a wife?" and "What is the greatest length you have gone to or stupidest thing you've done in the hope of scoring a particular girl?" which can only be answered accurately by heterosexual, unmarried men.
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I thought I should copy you in on some of the issues you've raised on the message board https://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=125406027531398&topic=37&post=198....

When you say that the competition discriminates against married people and gays/lesbians, there are at least two things in play, here.

1. Either you are is advocating extra-marital affairs (I see this as unlikely) or
2. You're not understanding the legal issues involved in marriage, assuming anyone in the competition were to get that far.

Basically, a married man would not be eligible to get married in the Ukraine OR New Zealand because when one applies for the appropriate documentation to get married overseas, one has to supply a document from the home country that he/she is in fact not married. I know this from personal experience.

To the best of my recollection, Ukraine does not recognize same-sex marriage. Althought the LGBT community has a lot of rights in that country, marriage is not one of them (although civil unions are not explicitly prohibited, this would make applying for a visa to any country that WOULD recognize a same-sex union, including New Zealand, very difficult).

As such, it would be a huge waste of time and money to send someone who is married/gay/lesbian.

I hope this has clarified some of the issues - I have opened a dialogue on my own website (mathew-carley.com) in case you're interested to read - not necessarily the other side to the competition, as I still think it is ethically questionable - but certainly a number of posts and comments to debunk some of the untruths that are being spread by the moderators of the group.

I send you this message with the best of intentions - I hope that, if anything, I will have been helpful in providing you with more evidence so that you can evaluate it and form your own opinions.

I haven't even checked how old you are :D:D

I assume being formerly of the feminist movement in the 70's you'd be 50+... so... yeah... I guess we could call ourselves "an average Kiwi".

The funny thing is, despite it all, Rachel and I probably have some common ground on this issue... but you know what they say about one bad apple.

Haha funny that. That's exactly what I felt like saying to Rachel - but more along the lines of girl if you want to go further in politics you need to get rid of [censored] like scube. And na - averaging out is all great! How well do you reckon you and I are doing for race and gender and oh, AGE relations in NZ? I reckon we're averaging out quite well!

Whetumarama Tuhua

I SHOULD MAKE IT KNOWN THAT IT HAS COME TO MY ATTENTION THAT MY "ANGST" WAS LIKELY DIRECTED AT THE WRONG PERSON. WHILE I DID COPY THE SAME MESSAGES TO THIS SCUBE PERSON AS WELL, ONLY RACHEL RESPONDED TO MY EMAILS.

(Thanks to Whetumarama for pointing that out).

Having read this I feel like I should be writing an apology of sorts to Rachel, but I'm not sure it would do much good, and would probably be exceedingly difficult to write & sound like anything other than a jackass... err... sincere.

On the other hand, due to the lack of distinction as you pointed out it is difficult to tell who wrote what, so whether they like it or not, they must each both take responsibility for each other's posts, and I can hardly be blamed for not knowing to whom I was calling a misandrist (which seems to have been the comment over which someone took offense).

The only remedy to this is that they need to post not as admins, but using their normal Facebook identities, or better still, Rachel needs to tell Scube to pull her head in.

Perhaps I'm wrong about Rachel, right about Scube? (Don't you just hate it when things average out like that?)

Just finished reading through the record here of screenshots from Facebook re. the campaign to get rid of the Rock's Win a Wife competition, and I've spent some considerable hours reading through the Facebook site and the links to various cheapshot journo sites. I find it extremely concerning that Matthew has been blocked from the page because he was dum enough to suggest that perhaps the moderators were 'misandrists' and that perhaps they were also against dating and marriage. Ok - that was a stupid comment. But the rest of his commentary was measured, calm and informative.
Now I don't have any issues with Rachel (except girl - I did NOT want to know about your knickers twisted or otherwise, which was the first comment I got to read on that page!), but I certainly do with the moderator 'scube'. My first post to that discussion was slam dunked immediately, with the most incredibly snippy suggestion that I read the previous postings because scube was sick of dealing with uninformed commentary such as mine. Although she later apologised, I found her response to my contribution of a Maori cultural perspective and what may be expected in the cut and thrust of Wahine Maori political debate, to be naive, ignorant, and offensive.
"thank you for your support. if you are interested in discussing this with those who are Ukrainian there are QUITE A FEW PEOPLE ON THIS SITE FROM THE UKRAINIAN ASSN OF NZ" - the only comment I saw that seemed to be from someone who was familiar with the Ukraine, was Mathew.
"Working in healthcare I HAVE ALSO STRUGGLED TO UNITE THE NEEDS OF WAHINE MAORI "
Exxxccccuuussseee me? (scube continues -) "and THEIR HEALTH AND SAFETY while still maintaining respect for CULTURAL NEEDS THAT CHANGE FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL."
Now it just so happens that I have had a great deal to do with mainstream healthcare for well over 30 years politically and practically. Furthermore I am a Tohunga, and an Expert on the healing and cultural needs of my people, which includes the principles of whanaungatanga NOT individualism. Who does this person think she is 'struggling to UNITE the needs of Wahine Maori'? What an utter cheek. But WAIT - there's MORE!
"We (who's 'we') always appreciate insights FROM A VARIETY OF CULTURES, as our group shows, with a MULTITUDE OF CULTURES joining together to be a part of this page."
Well THAT'S NICE. So Maori 'insights' are relegated to the 'VARIETY' heap - just one amongst a MULTITUDE of cultures.
It just so happens that MAORI are in the legal position of being EXACTLY ONE HALF of the Treaty Partnership that governs AOTEAROA/New Zealand. This is the typical ill informed attitude that continues to disenfranchise and marginalise the position of the very Wahine Maori that she purports to STRUGGLE to unite!!!
So at that point I was willing to just roll my eyes and move on back to the REAL political commentary from the likes of major social activists, such as Annette Sykes, Te Whaiinga Wahine, Tai Tokerau Wahine, Te Ngakooterangi (a Tohunga), and perhaps to instigate some debate and commentary from some exceptionally able Maori intellectuals, activists, politicos, and Prayer Warriors, although I hesitated to expose anyone to the patronising and supercilious attitude of the group's moderator.
Then I caught sight of one of Mathews smart remarks about maybe (we) also believed the myth about the rule of thumb being about the rod to beat a wife being no bigger than the size of the husbands thumb. So I figured that hey - here we go - a bit of spark, a bit of life - lets have a go at this cheeky male hua! I was looking forward to his response to my quote "A maid, a wife, a dog and a tree, the more you beat them, the better they be" - a bit of ye olde English cultcha! But instead the only comment I got back was again from scube "Mathew has been blocked and the message above deleted, apologies that he got through the net while I was sleeping." -
This aroused my curiosity - so what sort of a male chauvinist pig was this guy? (Can you tell I'm one of the 1970s Women's libbers?!) What had he said that was so offensive that he got himself blocked from a 'Cause' page? And WHERE were all these MULTITUDES of different cultural perspectives uniting on this site? Especially the Ukrainians.
Imagine my surprise on learning that here was a man who 1. is about to commit to a cross cultural marriage, 2. speaks Russian, 3. Knows the Ukraine, 4. Is well travelled, and believe it or not actually interacts with a multitude of cultures (including a little identification with Maori!). 5. He's a man who actually KNOWS something about slavery and exploitation and HIV infections. 6. He has dialogue with a member of Interpol, who are deeply involved in crime busting sex trafficking and paedophile rings - now I recognise immediately the genuine passion that Interpol has for rescuing victims of kidnap and sexual crime, because I had the privilege of working for Interpol's NZ hosted Conference some years ago.
7. He posted links to FACTUAL sites to do with the Law in Ukraine. 8. He was concerned about the perceptions that are damaging Ukraine's image - implying that it has been tainted with the Hollywood brush - white slavery, mafia crime bosses, backward, dangerous and uncivilized. 9. He dared to suggest that Ukrainian women are intelligent, pious, and shock horror, may not even WANT to leave their country by marrying a New Zealander to get a green card, or residency. 10. He shared how extremely difficult it actually is to 'import' a bride through his own personal experience. and just to wrap it up, his serious offer to fly a New Zealand representative to the Ukraine, all expenses paid, to see for themselves what the conditions are and perhaps to create some bonds with our Russian sisters was treated as facetious.
Yes Mathew can be ascerbic - he uses the f word sometimes - well I used a whole lot of the bl word when I finally got round to reading the posts that got deleted. As part of the global village of indigenous peoples, I would JUMP at the opportunity to get acquainted with these women of a great and ancient culture, that has gone through major political upheavals and has also contributed so much to the thinking and liberation of labour movements in THIS country. I want to be INFORMED with FACTS - and I am totally DISinterested in hysterical petticoat politics, one upmanship, sniping, and the stifling of controversial debate.
And I did NOT go through the feminist movement including the times of the Matrimonial Property Act so that the next generation could indulge themselves in whining and gender discrimination and slandering anyone not a mirror image of themselves. GROW UP!!
And I'm not hiding behind a pseudonym either - ka kite ano - Whetumarama Tuhua (aka disgusted).

Please find replies inline.

Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:21:17 +1300 ?????? ?? "Rachel Hansen" :

Dear Matthew,

Thanks for your email. Your comments were really odd because nowhere in my blog post did I mention most of that stuff you raised. Furthermore, I have never professed to have any knowledge of Ukraine. I have also never made comparisons to slavery and paedophilia. (Although even The Dominion editorial yesterday referred slavery in relation to this debate).

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Maybe you haven't, but many of the people in your group have, as have several of the blogs you have linked to. You told me to read various things that you linked to. I did, and I found most of them based on fallacies, lies or, as I mentioned, false syllogisms, and so I made comment to that effect.

I'm speaking not necessarily as an expert on Ukraine but certainly as someone who has been there a few times, spent a few months in the country and some of it's neighbours over the last couple of years, who HAS seen both the underworld and the nice shiny side of the countries and met enough of the people - not to mention having seen documentaries about things including but not limited to sexual slavery and the mail-order-bridge phenomenon - to know roughly what is right and what is wrong, and was attempting to express the fact that perhaps you and your worthy constituents do need to get your facts straight before jumping in on a topic that it seems you know very little about, and yes, TV does tend to over dramatize things.

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Since I started my blog last year I have deleted only one comment, and this was because it was a scam comment (no words, just a link to a dodgy sounding website). There are def many comments on this blog that are not supporting my view! My comment to you was the first time I have ever had to threaten this. The accusation of "you're a misandrist, and you're against both dating and marriage" is very personally offensive to me. Despite stating this you claim "there are no personal attacks here." Hmm, if that is not a personal attack, I hate to imagine what is!

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Really? What comments are not supporting your view, exactly? I don't see very many on the group, and those that remain seem to be shot down pretty quick. So why was my comment not published on your blog?

Did you re-read any of the commentary you sent to me? Did you read any of the things that you linked to? Because by linking to those things it certainly gives off that kind of "vibe". I suppose next you'll target NZDating, PlentyofFish, match.com... I also speak decent Russian, shall I give you all the Russian dating and bridal sites? What about the tour agencies who specialize in getting foreign guys to Eastern Europe to meet women? These sites all advertise/sell basically what The Rock is promoting, but I don't see anything from your side about that.

Yes, The Rock may be doing things in an ethically questionable way, but it's not wrong, and almost everything that your fellow complainants are talking about is not even relevant to the topic at hand (such as Slavery and Pedophilia as mentioned above). And tsk tsk, when one person mentioned committing a crime against the agency, that went unnoticed. Yes, don't think I didn't see that.

Besides, if my comments were so offensive to you personally, you should have said so instead of censoring everything and blocking me from the group, or at least deleted just the one comment instead. You had my support before, but by doing this you not only lost it and all respect I had for it.

And I'm not the only one who has a problem here. I've been speaking to women all over the world about the campaign, including some in the Ukraine, and most of them think that while the campaign is wrong in the way that it promotes the country, international matchmaking is not a problem and if anything, it's usually the men who get scammed.

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It's somewhat odd for you to say that you would pay for my flights, accom and visa to go to Ukraine?! Seriously?! I do appreciate that offer. It is a part of the world I would like to go to, but I don't think my toddler and husband would appreciate me leaving them for that long! J

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I figured as much. If I was you, I'd have jumped at it. Oh well, guess it's more air-miles for me.

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It's been a pretty busy week and I have got behind in my other work, so I don't have the time to engage in an email debate with you from here on. Thanks for taking the time to put your point of view across.

All the best,

Rachel

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I presume this is the part where I consider myself dismissed in the same way you dismiss other contradictory opinions.

Look, basically all I want from you and the other people involved in this campaign is for them to:
1. Read the fineprint re: the competition
2. Read the relevent laws of the Ukraine regarding human trafficking/smuggling/rape/exploitation/etc
3. Stop comparing this competition to everything mentioned in #2 because it's simply untrue and misleading (and if your group were subject to BSA regulations you would most certainly be done for misrepresentation).
4. Check the facts, check the facts, check the facts before you go off blowing your nut about something which, with all due respect, it seems you know very little about (and I stress the "it seems" based solely on what I've seen from your side of the campaign including the posts from your fellow campaigners).

As I had mentioned earlier, I support your cause in principle, but when the logic and reasoning is based on incorrect facts and assumptions, I believe it's necessary to correct those so that those involved can evaluate the new data and modify their opinions accordingly. Without the ability to do that, we might as well all go "George Orwell".

(Just to clarify, Rani's a dear friend from down Wellington way).

I think in a lot of cases those formerly of the feminist movement such as yourself are sickened by the way these women are behaving. The feminist movement pretty much got what they wanted, but these women in particular are now taking it so far that it's creating an imbalance, and how does that make them better than the folks at "The Rock"?

Yes, they might have their "panties in a twist", even if they're right to do it (to some extent), it's for the wrong reasons and seems largely to be based on false assumptions.

The real problem is that they're not willing to look at the new evidence presented, learn from their mistakes and adjust their points of view, instead, ignoring the new evidence and in my case, blocking me from making my voice heard - which frankly makes them as bad or worse than the guys who came up with the idea in the first place.

Hmm funny! However I must say that I was part of the feminist movement of the 1970s, and a fan of all time greats such as Germaine Greer - I'm grateful to have been part of that movement to grow into my own femininity and to challenge stere...otypes. It was also about moving back into things like natural childbirth, control of fertility and ownership of our own bodies - to share or not, plus the politics of educational and work disparity. This generation is enjoying the benefits of the work of my generation - and that goes for my sons too. They are not obliged to follow any stereotype, but to grow into the best human being that they can be. As for sexism - oh come on, the French say 'Viva la difference', and amen to that! We need to listen to each other though. Arohanui Rani.

W. Tuhua

So says Rani: "Wow, feminists are appalling. How hilariously sexist that they can't take a serious argument from someone who happens to be male."

I hope you're making your voice heard on their Facebook page too, especially as I am unable to myself without starting a fresh facebook account.

Frankly I'm not surprised at your disgust about this woman's bollocks, but whether she is being racist/sexist or not, she's entitled to a point of view. But in exchange for that, the least she could do is afford everyone a fair and equal say, irrespective of gender, race, colour or creed. After all, that's what the woman's movement was mostly about, wasn't it? Not gender supremacy, but equality. The latter of which I can totally get behind.

I'm not sure if it's coincidence or perfect timing, but there happens to be a documentary about the Russian mail-order-bride business on National Geographic channel right now, so if you happen to have Sky, check it out (Channel 72).

I may not look it, but I'm a very small part Maori myself - my whanau are down in Carterton/Masterton/Foxton - the rest of me is Scots/Norwegian, so I guess I'm the same as a big percentage of people born in this country. Of course, as I have white skin, and being as young as I am, and being straight, I don't really think I can claim to have ever suffered because of my race, sexual orientation or gender... at least until now, anyway.

Personally I think if this women gave half as much of a shit about women's rights as she claims to, she wouldn't be on Facebook or writing blogs, she'd be heading off to the Ukraine or Africa to DO something - she could be taking care of the tens of thousands of HIV-positive women in Ukraine or rescuing them from places like Istanbul where they are often sent to work as prostitutes after trying to follow lucrative job offers... but she seems perfectly content to sit in her chair, and this concerns me deeply.

For the record, I haven't yet received a response to my offer to send her there (expenses paid, just like the competition) to take a look for herself.

Thank you for making contact again. Actually its absolutely outrageous to be suggesting that the Ukraine is backwards. Or to be passing commentary on African countries etc. This reminds me of the kind of brainless belief that Maori are all child killers, and low caste criminals. The sniffy young lady who blocked you, was also very careful to put me in my place telling me she is a nurse who has tried very hard to unite Maori Wahine. CHOKE!!! Total waste of time. Hey, I'm going to check out your website - you mentioned that you'd taken screenshots, so I'd like to know just what your take was. I don't find anything that you've written here to be chauvanist, or unclear, or obnoxious in the least. Informed it seems to me! Oh, that's right - you're the wrong gender?!!! Well that's okay, apparently I'm the wrong race (although I'm half Irish/Scots etc etc, plus Ngai Tuhoe Potiki).

W. Tuhua

Wow they really did get their knickers in a twist over being called out!

Then I wrote a message to Rachel:

Funny how you only publish the comments which praise you and your points of view, yet censor anyone who provides more insight to the situation based on, you know, ACTUAL EXPERIENCES in having travelled to Ukraine.

I fully understand your point of view, and to a certain extent I even support it.

But when your opinions are based on factual inaccuracies, I felt it was necessary to point them out so that maybe you could learn from the mistakes, evaluate the new evidence and adjust as necessary.

I even gave you legal evidence, yet you still dismissed it, and to me this suggests that you're just as narrow minded as they are! By dismissing criticisms and censoring differing opinions, you're no better than The Rock.

I would have hoped to help your cause, but instead you considered me to be making offensive personal attacks.

I admit, I can be abrasive, but I would maintain that there are no personal attacks here, only attacks against the facts. Since I've published my comments elsewhere, most of the support I've had has been from women.

I sincerely wish you well in your campaign, and as I mentioned countless times in my posts, I merely want to see arguments based on facts instead of fallacies, and the comparisons made to slavery and pedophilia are unjustified.

My suggestion for you would be to GO to Ukraine and see the situation for yourself. I'll even organize an invitation, visa, airfare and accommodation - but I doubt you'll do it.

Remember that LEARNING does not stop when school does. That's something you need to do every day of your life.

My reply:

It seems that you're quite right about the way they're, shall we say, pushing their agenda. I think I was correct in the way that the Ukrainians think about this campaign - it's not about the woman specifically, that part is not really necessary, it's about the way the COUNTRY is being portrayed. I can't even FIND any Ukrainians supporting or commenting on the group.

As I pointed out if a man forces marriage or sex on to an unwilling woman even in a country as "backwards" as the Ukraine (it's really not), he will be dealt with accordingly - but noooo, the fact that unlike many African countries (to which they also make comparisons), the Ukraine protects the fundamental human rights of it's citizens.

Some people are making comments about potential ideas for competitions to include pedophilia and slavery, both of which are illegal. Others are calling for cybercrimes against The Rock and/or the Dating Agency.

I think if I was a woman giving these same insights, then they probably would not have censored (blocked and removed) my various comments. All I'm calling for is for them to present the facts, not their opinions based on fallacies and untruths.

Anyway, enough about that.

Thank you for the advance congratulations on my upcoming nuptuals. She only wants 1 or 2 kids (I wanted 3, but she suggested maybe we should adopt one, which works I guess) - it's probably redundant to add too many to the Indian population!

Oh shoot - really! Well that's funny, because I found it offensive that I got told to contact the 'many people from the Ukraine supporting this thread' or some such, when I said I was speaking from a Maori cultural perspective - you know "Equal Treaty Partner" that kind of thing? So matey - I'm coming at you with a friend request. (so I can be friends with some cultured Ukrainians perhaps!!) Oh, kia ora, congratulations on your forthcoming marriage. Be kind to one another, and make lots of lovely children ;-)

W. Tuhua

My reply:

I'm a Kiwi, I've been to the Ukraine a few times, I'm marrying an Indian, and after I saw the group (which I support in principle), based on my knowledge of the Ukraine and with what I've been so many of told by one of my best friends who just *happens* to work for Interpol in Odessa, Ukraine, I thought maybe I should set about clarifying some of the innaccuracies.

Of course, that just got me blocked due to my posts being "offensive". Funny, considering I mentioned several times "I support what you're doing, you're just doing it wrong".

Fortunately, I got screenshots of every post that I made and published them on my own website, though being "opposition" I doubt it will garner nearly as much attention.

...Finally - a message of support (from a Maori woman, no less).

Hiya Mathew - yeah I had a good snigger about that boyo! The young lady who started that 'cause' can't handle the jandle - to my mind all she wants to do is get little clappy claps for her own self, she certainly wouldn't be capable of hacking the pace with Maori Wahine politics - no sense of humour, bite or fight, but a lot of one upmanship. So anyway Mathew - how did you come in contact with that cause? Do you work for the Rock??!! Single? Loved? Family? Let's be having ya - I'm assuming you're a kiwi Trev!

W. Tuhua

For the record, if any of *my* readers can point out ANY:

Offensive Comments
Harassment
Attacks on Personal Lives (and yeah, sure, getting in to my personal life would be easy to do, but I'm not doing anything wrong by having a Fiancee, am I?)
Ignorance about the arguments presented (they're comparing inter-country Marriage to Sex, Rape and Human Trafficking!!!)
...Or anything else that is UNTRUE, I would be indebted.

While I did suggest some were misandrists (man haters), it does appear that I may be right. They are BLOCKING anyone who presents a contradictory point of view, it's not just me.

And then:

matthew has been blocked and the message above deleted, apologies that he got through the net while I was sleeping (scube)"

This is a message I got on Facebook:

Gosh Matthew, we are SO glad you are here to explain the details to us. Because our tiny lady brains were just envious of other ladies getting married. I havent got down to this level of sarchasm, because no one else has been this offensivly ignorant of what we are arguing or gotten quite so personal about why we argue these points. our personal lives are not in question here, and Im not going to validate how good our lives are because caring about other people is the point here, NOT our personal lives. Stop harrassing the women on this page about why they make the choices they do. so far NO ONE has gotten into your personal life, and it would be easy enough to do."