Following on from what is (as of this writing) 27 pages of banter between myself and someone calling themselves "fibernet" on IBF, they contacted me and asked if I'd like to have a chat on IRC.

IRC, I thought. Seems a bit old fashioned, but it's always good to scrubs the rust off some of the old school knowledge, so I fired up my IRC client and had a wee chat.

Here is the full, unabridged log of that chat as it was sent to me (mine disappeared, I suspect because my IRC client was running in sandbox mode and thus the log file was not actually saved, so I had to ask for a copy).

18:10 < mgcarley> Good evening.
18:12 <@pk__> hey
18:12 < mgcarley> IRC seems a bit of a derelict place to be chatting these
days, isn't it? :D
18:13 <@pk__> depends
18:13 <@pk__> i am a vlc media player developer so we mostly use irc
18:13 <@pk__> i am pankaj yadav .one of the three founder os innogrids
18:14 < mgcarley> Ahh. I use IRC for a few things but sparingly.
18:14 < mgcarley> Hi Pankaj, nice to be talking with you.
18:14 <@pk__> first of all i want to say let us just forget everything that
happened on forum
18:15 < mgcarley> Fair enough.
18:15 < mgcarley> I think my concerns have been sufficiently aired out in the
open.
18:15 < mgcarley> What's next?
18:15 <@pk__> yeah
18:16 <@pk__> i think it should be clear first where the two companies stand
right now before anything else
18:17 <@pk__> we are just trying to connect at building level and then city
18:17 < mgcarley> I think it's obvious: you're building LANs, I'm building a
network for Internet use. As you could essentially take on
the role of being a cable service providerYour network could
potentially be useful for my company.
18:17 < mgcarley> Fair enough.
18:18 < mgcarley> My main concern about getting to the city level was the
viability of you plan when you take in to consideration all
of the charges that are levied on license holders when
building.
18:18 < mgcarley> Not ISP license holders, that is... infrastructure license
holders.
18:18 <@pk__> of course you were right
18:19 <@pk__> what we want to do is create a big lan and then advertise on our
client software
18:19 < mgcarley> Whether you're a telecom/power/water/etc company, you have to
have the appropriate licensing and permissions.
18:19 < mgcarley> I see
18:19 < mgcarley> So your model is basically advertisement based.
18:19 <@pk__> yeah
18:19 <@pk__> and regarding licenses
18:20 < mgcarley> Right, so to actually use your network, you *have* to have
this software installed?
18:20 <@pk__> exactly..like dc++
18:20 < mgcarley> I see.
18:20 < mgcarley> So as I think I mentioned in one of the posts, sort of like
the Kazaa model
18:21 <@pk__> not sure they proide connections too
18:21 <@pk__> basic idea is that..whatever high speed we plan for our people
gets stuck at network speeds
18:21 < mgcarley> Kazaa was a client software used for file sharing back in the
day (2002-2003-ish)
18:22 < mgcarley> Before that was Napster (1999-2001 ish)
18:22 < mgcarley> They were all advertisement driven.
18:22 <@pk__> right right
18:22 < mgcarley> My question would therefore be how to convince advertisers to
pay sufficient cash to make it viable. If they're looking at
more than say Re1 per subscriber, they might balk at it being
too expensive.
18:23 < mgcarley> Because you're probably going to have to have local
advertising - no point in advertising a product that's not
available where your customers are.
18:24 <@pk__> if the network spreads..then there wont be any problem
18:24 < mgcarley> Of course, but to do that you are going to need sufficient
capital.
18:24 < mgcarley> And as I've mentioned, building at the city level is far from
cheap.
18:25 < mgcarley> Especially in Mumbai, but also in Delhi etc as well.
18:25 < mgcarley> The rates levied by municipalities are almost sickening.
18:25 <@pk__> no in our case there wont be many problems
18:25 < mgcarley> Because you're tieing up with BSNL?
18:26 <@pk__> we are tieing up with bsnl but for only bandwidth
18:26 <@pk__> no problems of cables and all just because
18:26 < mgcarley> So how do you plan to connect building A to building B?
18:27 <@pk__> most of our target areas are not owned by government
18:27 <@pk__> say heeranandani
18:27 < mgcarley> ...
18:27 < mgcarley> The government still levies the charges, I can assure you.
18:27 <@pk__> no they dont
18:28 <@pk__> even on public land if you are not messing up too much they dont
give shit
18:28 < mgcarley> That's not my experience.
18:28 < mgcarley> Hirandani might be the building developer, but you're still
going to have to pay some fees to the city or state.
18:29 <@pk__> actually that is not a big problem
18:29 < mgcarley> Hirandani might "own" the land, but it's within the
jurisdiction of (whichever city the complex is in), and
therefore you will HAVE to pay to the city.
18:30 < mgcarley> Because "own" is a kind of misnomer under land laws.
18:30 < mgcarley> It's more like a permanent lease unless and until the
city/state/central government decides otherwise (for example,
it needs it for roads or something)
18:31 < mgcarley> Even BSNL have to pay these fees to the city, and that's one
of the reasons that they're having such difficulties
expanding their fiber footprint at the moment: they don't
have any money to pay and they also don't want to pay.
18:31 < mgcarley> And if they don't pay, they don't get granted the permission
to put any cable in anywhere.
18:32 < mgcarley> So, it actually is a HUGE problem, and something that I'm
dealing with daily at the moment.
18:33 <@pk__> planing for a whole city may be a problem
18:33 <@pk__> i mean you need to lay the fiber at once
18:33 <@pk__> in our case it is not the situation
18:34 <@pk__> all we needed was a license
18:34 < mgcarley> Nah, you can lay it as it's needed - in that way it's similar
to what we're doing. In Mumbai, I can supply some areas
immediately, but others will have to wait until we have fiber
out there.
18:34 < mgcarley> You mean ISP license?
18:34 < mgcarley> Or Infra license?
18:34 <@pk__> isp license
18:34 < mgcarley> You don't need an ISP license to build a network.
18:34 < mgcarley> Unless you are planning to become an actual ISP
18:35 < mgcarley> Which involves so much more than just putting in a few cables
around the place.
18:35 <@pk__> actually the things is
18:35 <@pk__> telegraph act gives exclusive pribileges to install maintain and
operate any telegraph in india to central government
18:36 <@pk__> either we need a separate license for this thing or an isp license
18:36 < mgcarley> Yes it does.
18:36 < mgcarley> But that doesn't mean it's free.
18:36 < mgcarley> What you DO need is an infrastructure license.
18:36 < mgcarley> an ISP license does not give you the right to put cables in
anywhere.
18:37 < mgcarley> an ISP license is only for the service.
18:37 < mgcarley> moreover, even if telcos/ISPs had exclusive rights under the
same act, doesn't mean that it's abided by (see above).
18:38 < mgcarley> As mentioned, even BSNL has problems with this.
18:39 <@pk__> actually we can fight for that
18:39 <@pk__> an isp license will suffice in our case
18:40 <@pk__> not even that if we get a separate permission from DOT
18:40 <@pk__> for this type of service
18:40 <@pk__> because ISP license is for providing "Internet Access" which we
are never going to provide
18:40 < mgcarley> I spoke with "principal general manager of corporate
planning" for BSNL only on Thursday about this same topic (he
is responsible for planning infrastructure for NIB, MPLS and
Broadband services).
18:41 < mgcarley> If you fight for that, you will be in court for decades.
18:41 < mgcarley> Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
18:41 <@pk__> t-shirt?
18:41 < mgcarley> it's a figure of speech
18:41 <@pk__> ohh
18:42 < mgcarley> But I can tell you right now that you do not need an ISP
license to lay infrastructure. In fact it does not even give
you the right to do any such thing.
18:42 < mgcarley> If you don't believe me, read the license agreement in full.
18:42 < mgcarley> So you do not need to even worry about getting an ISP license.
18:42 <@pk__> mgcarley: the same thing i am also doing for my company for long
18:43 < mgcarley> Which company?
18:43 <@pk__> the one i was planing :)
18:43 < mgcarley> Which one?
18:43 <@pk__> innogrids
18:44 < mgcarley> So you've been laying infrastructure or having an ISP or what?
18:44 <@pk__> reading licenses :)
18:45 < mgcarley> Right, so if you've read it, you'll notice that there is no
provision for laying infrastructure.
18:46 <@pk__> section 2 of telegraph act empowers government to give licenses
for transfering those exclusive privileges of central givernment
18:47 <@pk__> this is exactly what has been done through ISP license
18:47 <@pk__> it allows us to install operate and maintain any network which
gives Internet Access to public
18:48 <@pk__> Internet has been well defined though, as a global network having
unique address for each computer
18:48 <@pk__> ok let us proceed
18:49 < mgcarley> Read the license. It has not got anything about putting in
cables. That is covered under a separate license, which is
what I'm trying to tell you.
18:49 <@pk__> so we needed a license or anything official to prove that central
government gave us permission to install this network
18:49 < mgcarley> Central government gives you permission to install a network
but that does not give you automatic right of way for free.
18:49 < mgcarley> If you think it does, then, good luck to you - prove me wrong.
18:50 < mgcarley> And central government will only give you permission if you
have the correct license. Which the ISP license is not.
18:50 <@pk__> central gives permission in the form of license
18:51 <@pk__> actually we also figured a way to bypass this issue
18:51 <@pk__> we are planing to register societies under societies act
18:51 <@pk__> and the network will be owned by the society
18:52 <@pk__> company is not going to own the network
18:52 <@pk__> usually they dont mess with anything in which public is involved
18:52 < mgcarley> That takes care of the society's own cabling, sure, but
that's not the issue here. If you want to go across any
public facility (road, rail etc) then you will need the
correct license AND permission.
18:53 < mgcarley> Look, I'm not going to argue with you - you get the license,
and then you try getting permission from the municipality to
install cables for free. I'm quite certain that they will
throw you out of the building in about 10 seconds flat.
18:53 < mgcarley> Every other company in India needs these permissions, you
will be no exception.
18:54 <@pk__> by the way what cost did they ask from you?
18:54 < mgcarley> It varies by municipality. Quite widely.
18:54 < mgcarley> Some cities are cheap, other cities are danmed expensive.
18:54 <@pk__> bombay?
18:54 < mgcarley> Mumbai works out to around Rs1 crore per kilometer.
18:55 < mgcarley> It is BY FAR the most expensive city in India.
18:55 <@pk__> then there wont be any problems i guess
18:55 <@pk__> in our plan
18:55 < mgcarley> Well, there will. Because you're still going to have to pay.
18:56 <@pk__> even if we have to pay there wont be any problem
18:56 < mgcarley> Really? Why do you say that?
18:56 <@pk__> and this is one time or recurring?
18:57 <@pk__> bcoz no one is going to pay that :)
18:57 < mgcarley> one-time baseline. each individual ward can also take cash -
sometimes we end up having to pay 3 or 4 different
departments separately.
18:57 < mgcarley> Oh but they do, because Mumbai is so "valuable"
18:58 <@pk__> even 1 crore is not so high considering that density
18:58 < mgcarley> It is when you consider the actual penetration rate.
18:58 < mgcarley> It would be nice if we could subscribe 100% of homes passed,
but that's far from the case.
18:58 <@pk__> we are expecting a high penetration rate
18:59 < mgcarley> Yes, I saw 55% You're probably expecting too much.
19:00 <@pk__> well we will see what other isps are doing
19:00 <@pk__> In india all we need is just a stay from the court
19:00 < mgcarley> You're aware that the total rate is only about 1.5%, aren't
you?
19:00 <@pk__> and your network will keep on running for years then
19:00 < mgcarley> If you can get it installed.
19:01 < mgcarley> Getting some cables in to buildings will be easy. Getting
those buildings connected together, that will be difficult.
19:01 <@pk__> i have a "we will see" approach on all these issues
19:02 <@pk__> otherwise we wont be able to even start
19:02 < mgcarley> If I may be frank, that is a dangerous position to have.
19:02 < mgcarley> If you're expecting 55%, then no, you probably won't be able
to start.
19:02 < mgcarley> If that's what you *need* to break even.
19:03 <@pk__> where did you get that 55% figure?
19:03 < mgcarley> From you on the forum.
19:03 <@pk__> did i write it somewhere?
19:03 < mgcarley> Yes
19:03 < mgcarley> Considering that you don't have an Internet service, what is
the penetration rate you're expecting?
19:04 <@pk__> considering we are not asking anything ..i expect more
penetration rate than ISPs
19:04 < mgcarley> Unless you plan to trick people in to believing that they're
purchasing something else, then how do you plan on doing that?
19:04 < mgcarley> People don't just shell out Rs5k for no reason.
19:05 < mgcarley> That's why we (and everyone else) has to take a "token" fee
and then amortize the cost of our infrastructure over several
years.
19:06 <@pk__> i believe publlic would love to get connected through a lan
19:07 < mgcarley> Believe what you like, that doesn't mean it's true. Have you
done any market research among non-IITans?
19:08 <@pk__> mgcarley: even in varanasi and even those people who donot have
internet connection, wanted to go for a high speed lan
19:08 <@pk__> actually what people want is a "unlimited" at any cost
19:08 < mgcarley> Yes, but they want unlimited to the Internet. Not to 50 other
users.
19:09 <@pk__> come on it is just to write on website
19:09 <@pk__> we are not going to install in small buildings
19:09 < mgcarley> ...to write on a website requires Internet access, no?
19:09 < mgcarley> Which creates a problem of connecting all those larger
buildings together.
19:10 < mgcarley> Considering that your product has limited use (and doesn't
provide Internet), how do you realistically expect even say
10% penetration rate? You might get that in a building that's
packed with lots of techies, but in an average building,
maybe not.
19:10 < mgcarley> And then you'll have to connect all of your wired-up
buildings together which will cost you significant amounts of
money.
19:10 < mgcarley> Personally, I think you need to do some market research
outside of your IIT, get a business advisor, a financial
advisor, legal advisor and marketing advisor.
19:11 <@pk__> we need to take risks
19:11 < mgcarley> Of course you do. But there's risk, and there's business
suicide.
19:12 <@pk__> ok what about say a building which has 2400 flats?
19:13 < mgcarley> Let's be generous and give you 3% penetration - double the
average.
19:13 < mgcarley> That's 72.
19:13 < mgcarley> That's easy, no problem.
19:13 <@pk__> we cant say
19:13 < mgcarley> But that's not the real world, really. Let's say if you
interview even say 1,000 IITans, and they ALL want access to
your LAN, that's awesome.
19:14 < mgcarley> But they don't all live in the same building, do they?
They're going to live hundreds or thousands of meters apart.
Which will cost you significant sums to connect, and even
with a 1 time charge of Rs5k it won't be enough to cover the
basics.
19:14 <@pk__> ok so what is your progress with your company?
19:15 <@pk__> venture capital?
19:15 < mgcarley> Yes.
19:16 <@pk__> detailsm if you dont think it si dangerous for you business
19:16 < mgcarley> We're building infrastructure and currently we have about
17,000 connections ready to go.
19:16 < mgcarley> I'm not allowed to disclose who or how much, but it's enough.
19:16 < mgcarley> For about 3 months.
19:17 <@pk__> what about license
19:17 <@pk__> license*
19:17 <@pk__> licenses*
19:18 < mgcarley> Infra license we have. ISP-A license we're waiting for a call
to come back to Delhi to sign off and give them a cheque.
19:18 < mgcarley> (well, actually a bank guarantee, but you get the drift)
19:19 <@pk__> by infra license you mean IP_II right?
19:19 < mgcarley> IP2 is not given out anymore.
19:19 < mgcarley> IP-1 is the only infra license they give out.
19:20 <@pk__> IP1 is free right?
19:20 < mgcarley> No.
19:20 <@pk__> then?
19:20 < mgcarley> Non-refundable application fees of Rs15k plus some other
obligatory stuff.
19:20 <@pk__> ohh come on
19:20 <@pk__> that is free :)
19:21 < mgcarley> It's not free, it's cheap.
19:21 <@pk__> of course
19:21 <@pk__> 15k compard to 100 crore is negligible
19:21 < mgcarley> No dispute there.
19:22 <@pk__> so as i told you it will be very easy for us if we have a ISP
license
19:22 < mgcarley> But 100 crore didn't even get us 100km of fibre laid so...
even 100 crore is negligible compared to our total budget.
19:22 < mgcarley> But you don't need an ISP license.
19:23 < mgcarley> An ISP license will not give you the ability/right to lay
cable.
19:23 < mgcarley> Please read the documentation because it sounds to me like
you have not read it enough.
19:23 <@pk__> i have read it several times
19:23 <@pk__> let us not fight on that
19:23 <@pk__> IP1 is free so we can take it anytime
19:24 <@pk__> costs of laying cable...that is also free for us
19:24 <@pk__> all we need is a ISP license
19:24 < mgcarley> Then you should know the numbers by heart and you should know
that it has nothing to do with infrastructure.
19:24 < mgcarley> And you would also know your obligations under various other
laws.
19:25 -!- mgcarley [mgcarley@182.snat-111-91-119.hns.net.in] has quit [Read
error: Connection reset by peer]
19:28 -!- mgcarley [~mgcarley@182.snat-111-91-119.hns.net.in] has joined
#fibernet
19:28 < mgcarley> Sorry... d/c.
19:28 <@pk__> welcomeback :)
19:29 <@pk__> yeah indian isps :)
19:29 < mgcarley> And you would also know your obligations with regards to QoS.
19:29 <@pk__> yeah i know
19:29 < mgcarley> No, I wasn't disconnected. Freenode kicked me.
19:29 < mgcarley> Or something.
19:29 <@pk__> oh
19:29 < mgcarley> And you would also know your obligations with regards to
Security/Monitoring.
19:29 < mgcarley> And if you'd read the infra license, you'd know that the RoW
is not free.
19:29 < mgcarley> Those are the messages I had queued up
19:29 < mgcarley> So yes
19:30 < mgcarley> What I'm trying to say is that from where I sit, there are
many things not taken in to account.
19:30 < mgcarley> And I would love to see your network built to a good standard.
19:30 <@pk__> actually you are taking it all wrong
19:30 < mgcarley> Well... no. You're saying "we need an ISP license" etc, and
these clauses are binding if you were to get one.
19:31 <@pk__> no i am not saying that
19:31 <@pk__> let me explain again
19:31 <@pk__> before that i would like to tell you that i am from mining
engineering background
19:32 <@pk__> networking is my interest....http://people.videolan.org/~pk you
can later read if you like
19:32 <@pk__> basically we read only laws in mining engineering ..not much is
there about engineering
19:32 < mgcarley> ok. I won't go in to my background, it's too complicated.
Basically I'm an IT/Business/Law guy.
19:32 <@pk__> so i am not that bad with law
19:32 < mgcarley> Well... you say that...
19:32 < mgcarley> Anyway, if you can build it in the price you're proposing,
then I'm all for it.
19:34 <@pk__> we never thought of PONs ..but since the time you enquired about
our network..i am seriously
19:34 <@pk__> considering to go for PON now
19:34 < mgcarley> But realistically, I have my doubts about several things,
most of all that you think you can evade the RoW charges.
19:34 < mgcarley> Even in a PON you'll still need a CPE and gigabit CPEs aren't
cheap.
19:34 < mgcarley> Most have 100mbit/s ports in them.
19:35 <@pk__> hmm
19:35 <@pk__> indeed
19:35 <@pk__> but it can bedone in 5000
19:35 <@pk__> or a bit more
19:36 < mgcarley> The CPE will eat 100% of that cost.
19:36 < mgcarley> If you went PON.
19:36 < mgcarley> And gigabit.
19:36 < mgcarley> If you stick with copper, maybe you can do it, but then you
still have to power the network, maintain the network, and
pay for RoW if you want to connect buildings together.
19:37 <@pk__> power costs will be covered by advertisement i think
19:37 < mgcarley> Do you know how much power is?
19:37 <@pk__> yeah i know
19:37 < mgcarley> And how much your advertisements will generate in revenue?
19:38 < mgcarley> Moreover, you're probably going to have to implement an
ad-server to download, display & update those ads.
19:38 <@pk__> for start the money left from installation fee will power the
network
19:38 <@pk__> and then i think we will get decent advertisement
19:39 < mgcarley> Fair enough, but then you have to actually be able to justify
a Rs5000 fee up front.
19:39 <@pk__> regarding maintaining..again we are a bit protected than normal
ISPs
19:39 <@pk__> most of our infrastructure even cables and fiber will be in
buildings
19:39 < mgcarley> well... yes and no. Doesn't mean stuff doesn't get dusty and
so on.
19:39 < mgcarley> And you'll have to deal with cable service providers whether
you like it or not.
19:40 < mgcarley> Because you'll be encroaching on their "turf"
19:40 <@pk__> do you have cable service providers in mumbai?
19:40 <@pk__> they are almost killed here
19:40 < mgcarley> They're all over the country. Except maybe Chennai.
19:41 <@pk__> i dont think there is going to be any problem
19:41 <@pk__> from that point too
19:41 <@pk__> our only concern is another ISP filing a case against us
19:41 <@pk__> that we are doing it without an ISP license
19:42 < mgcarley> For the umpteenth time, you do not need an ISP license.
19:42 <@pk__> then even if we say that we dont need ISP license
19:42 < mgcarley> Laying cable is not providing an ISP service.
19:42 < mgcarley> So an ISP woul dhave nothing to do with you.
19:42 <@pk__> this question qill come "when central government have all the
privileges..did you take any license for this?"
19:42 < mgcarley> Which is what I've been trying to tell you all along.
19:43 < mgcarley> I think you can build maybe the individual lans in the
individual buildings MAYBE in that price, but you almost
certainly wouldn't have enough left over to connect buildings
together.
19:43 < mgcarley> Unless Varanasi charges like Rs10/km
19:43 <@pk__> mgcarley: it is a concern,believe me. We are installing a network
, a public network [of course if we dont go with the society
registrationplan and own the network ourself]
19:44 <@pk__> varanasi , delhi and gurgaon wont cost us in that...dont know
much about mumbai
19:44 < mgcarley> In which case society needs to have the correct clause(s) in
it's MoA/AoA as well as the requisite permisions.
19:44 < mgcarley> Gurgaon is quite expensive, Delhi is quite expensive, but
neither *as* expensive as Mumbai... are you aware of what
these charges are?
19:45 <@pk__> mgcarley: seriously we should not discuss on these cost issues
19:46 < mgcarley> Well, I consider it a little bit necessary because I know
what they are and I know 100% that if you're charging Rs5k
per customer and not having a recurring fee that your
business will not be open for very long.
19:46 < mgcarley> I'm trying to help you here and you're merely resisting me
and trying to tell me that I'm wrong.
19:46 <@pk__> mgcarley: i know you are trying to help me
19:47 <@pk__> but the thing is "i want to give it a try even if i get bankrupt"
19:47 < mgcarley> So then please don't be arrogant and suggest to me that all
is taken care of/can be taken care of and this and that;
because judging by what I've read and what you've said here
tonight, this is not the case.
19:48 < mgcarley> This is a very sad philosophy to have, but, if that is what
you want to do, then I'll encourage it.
19:48 < mgcarley> And when you need someone to buy your network assets, give me
a call.
19:49 <@pk__> we are using HP procurve or tejas if you want to know
19:49 < mgcarley> I know several people from Tejas networks as well.
19:49 <@pk__> so?
19:49 < mgcarley> HP Procurve are OK but based on your numbers, you can't
afford them.
19:50 < mgcarley> I know Tejas wouldn't let you build a network for only
Rs5k/subscriber.
19:51 <@pk__> what type of netowrk you are planing?
19:52 <@pk__> pon?
19:52 < mgcarley> 10GPON (with fallbacks to GPON for older equipment) mostly
with Alcatel Lucent equipment. Juniper core.
19:52 <@pk__> ok
19:53 <@pk__> so is it possible that you provide internet on our lan from start
19:53 <@pk__> we are first targeting delhi
19:54 <@pk__> i mean gurgaon
19:54 <@pk__> i am native of gurgaon and have good contacts
19:54 < mgcarley> I'm sure Sushubh from IBF would love that.
19:54 < mgcarley> If your network is up to our standard then I would be happy
to provide Internet on your LANs.
19:55 <@pk__> subhash is?
19:55 < mgcarley> Operamaniac on IBF
19:55 < mgcarley> He owns the site.
19:55 < mgcarley> He lives in Gurgaon.
19:55 <@pk__> yeah right
19:55 < mgcarley> I met him for the first time a few months back.
19:55 <@pk__> good
19:56 < mgcarley> So if we provided access then of course it sounds like the
RoW would be our problem (getting fiber from our NCR NOC to
the building), yes?
19:56 <@pk__> if you dont want to take pain
19:56 <@pk__> we can get bandwidth from bsnl
19:56 <@pk__> and just become your frenchisee
19:56 < mgcarley> FYI BSNL doesn't have it's own bandwidth.
19:57 <@pk__> k agreed :)
19:57 < mgcarley> Also, BSNL's network is not good.
19:57 <@pk__> where are you connecting?
19:57 < mgcarley> It's also very expensive to lease.
19:57 < mgcarley> We could not provide 1gbit/s services over their network.
19:57 < mgcarley> We're starting in Mumbai, Delhi/NCR will come later (early
2012).
19:58 <@pk__> so untill then just make us your frenchisee
19:58 <@pk__> and let us handle bandwidth and everything
19:58 < mgcarley> You would have to then build the network to our standard.
19:58 <@pk__> say what are your demands
19:58 < mgcarley> You're thinking of reseller, not franchisee.
19:59 <@pk__> no no
19:59 < mgcarley> Franchisee would be obliged to provide the exact same
services as we do. Reseller would buy a leased line from us
and distribute as they see fit.
20:00 <@pk__> Resellers are not possible
20:00 < mgcarley> You would have to build FTTH as we are.
20:00 < mgcarley> With the same equipment we use.
20:00 < mgcarley> Same build quality.
20:01 < mgcarley> And you would pay us for the right to use the
name/brand/marketing etc - that is how franchising works.
20:01 <@pk__> yeah exactly
20:01 < mgcarley> Like McDonalds or Cafe Coffee Day.
20:01 <@pk__> how do you htink ISP license allows companies to sahre license?
20:02 <@pk__> i mean what is the most convenient way according to you for both
companies to do business with highest independence
20:02 < mgcarley> It allows ISPs to provide services through cable service
providers, but it doesn't specify whether they have to be
franchisee or reseller.
20:03 <@pk__> i think they allow only in form f frenchisee
20:03 <@pk__> which means we will do business in the name of your company
20:03 <@pk__> with the standards you specify
20:03 < mgcarley> No, they don't. Most cable providers sell under their own
name on behalf of an ISP. Not many use the actual ISP name.
20:04 < mgcarley> On the other hand, we would not offer a reseller deal in
India - we would get too many people trying to take like
100mbps leased line and resell that to 1000 customers which
would dilute our own offering.
20:05 <@pk__> reselling is totally illegal
20:05 < mgcarley> No it's not.
20:05 <@pk__> say if i take 1G line from an ISP
20:06 <@pk__> and distribute it to 100 customers
20:06 <@pk__> and i dont follow QoS of TRAI
20:06 <@pk__> then who is government going to blame?
20:06 < mgcarley> ISP.
20:06 <@pk__> exactly
20:06 < mgcarley> It's up to the ISP to ensure quality controls
20:07 < mgcarley> But if you read the license, you'll see in Annex II of the
agreement that there is a clause for declaring revenue from
resellers/franchisees.
20:07 <@pk__> what if ISP says we wre not aware of this thing
20:08 < mgcarley> Then ISP has some time to check out the problem and have it
fixed.
20:08 <@pk__> no no
20:08 < mgcarley> yes yes.
20:08 <@pk__> basically the model is
20:08 <@pk__> the party who is giving public the connection is responsible to
follow the rules
20:08 <@pk__> which are applied to ISPs
20:08 <@pk__> imposed on *
20:09 <@pk__> so one has to be ISP or reselling a exact service in the name of
ISP only
20:09 < mgcarley> But the ISP is the one with the agreement with the DoT. The
CSP has the agreement with the customer. The ISP and the CSP
have an agreement amongst themselves, which includes a clause
that CSP has to maintain a certain QoS.
20:10 < mgcarley> CSP can distribute bandwidth however they like.
20:10 < mgcarley> So long as they have enough to meet the demands of the
customers.
20:10 < mgcarley> So if CSP has a 10mbit/s line, in theory he can provide 500
customers on that according to TRAI regulations.
20:11 < mgcarley> If they all get 1mbit/s only
20:11 < mgcarley> Or 50 customers if they all get 10mbit/s.
20:11 <@pk__> so according to you , one should deal with ISP to become reseller
20:12 < mgcarley> Yes. Who else would you deal with?
20:12 <@pk__> and then in the deal ISP will impose those rules
20:12 < mgcarley> Yes.
20:13 < mgcarley> In the event that it's a reseller agreement they will impose
one set of rules. If it's a franchisee agreement, they they
will impose another set of rules.
20:13 <@pk__> what if someone resells without any deal
20:14 < mgcarley> Then that would be a very dangerous business practice and the
ISP may lose his license and have to pay damages to the DoT,
so... that's not very likely.
20:14 <@pk__> not the ISP
20:14 <@pk__> a reseller sales without telling the ISP
20:15 < mgcarley> You mean if you took a normal residential connection and
resold it to others?
20:15 <@pk__> no we took a business connection and sold
20:16 <@pk__> a business conection comes with those terms?
20:16 < mgcarley> Check your contract,
20:16 < mgcarley> but probably not.
20:16 < mgcarley> As in
20:16 < mgcarley> If you're reselling a business connection and they find out
20:16 < mgcarley> You may be in some serious legal trouble.
20:17 <@pk__> i talked to BSNL people and they told that there is no problem in
reselling
20:17 <@pk__> i was not sure though
20:18 < mgcarley> The ISP has certain things it must be able to provide the DoT
at any time, and that includes the details of every single
active customer on the network.
20:18 < mgcarley> If it's not written in the contract that you can resell,
chances are, you can't.
20:18 <@pk__> that is what i want to say
20:19 <@pk__> reseller and franchisee in ISP world are almost same
20:19 <@pk__> no?
20:19 < mgcarley> Not even close.
20:19 < mgcarley> Doesn't matter what industry.
20:20 <@pk__> ok
20:20 <@pk__> what do you suggest we should do so that we can reslae internet
over fibernet
20:21 <@pk__> resale your bandwidth i must add
20:22 < mgcarley> Since, by the sounds of it, the ISP will need to pull fiber
from somewhere to connect up to the building anyway, he may
not want to use your network, instead opting to just build
whatever suits his need (in Airtel/MTNL/BSNL case that would
be install a DSLAM nearby and run twisted-pairs to the
customers).
20:23 < mgcarley> If you have a network that covers a reasonable area, then an
ISP might want to talk to you - presumably the ISP will
connect at 3 or 4 separate points on your network to ensure
connectivity, stablity and reliability.
20:24 < mgcarley> We don't do reselling - we would only consider franchising,
which means an all fiber product including CPEs at the user's
home.
20:25 <@pk__> hmm
20:25 < mgcarley> basically, you find us the customer, we bill the customer, we
provide the service under our name (etc etc etc), you take a
cut every month for the infrastructure.
20:25 <@pk__> okk
20:26 <@pk__> where are you planing your NOC in ncr?
20:26 <@pk__> noida?
20:26 < mgcarley> Delhi's a big place, we'll need at least 2
20:27 <@pk__> we are planing to convince users from DLF
20:27 < mgcarley> One will be in Faridabad for sure, another will be in
Gurgaon, I'm trying to decide on if there should be a third
and if so, where.
20:27 < mgcarley> I know people in DLF and Bhosale among others.
20:30 <@pk__> i will discuss with my other partners and let us talk again
20:31 < mgcarley> Sure thing.
20:31 <@pk__> nice it was nice talking to you
20:32 < mgcarley> Likewise
20:35 -!- mgcarley [~mgcarley@182.snat-111-91-119.hns.net.in] has left
#fibernet []

There are still a few questions left unanswered, like, it is mentioned that "laying cable is free" - but where? In the buildings? Maybe - if he can make a deal with the housing society - none that I know of will let him do it for free, but you never know.

Right of Way DEFINITELY not - even BSNL has to pay right of way charges. I had a debate with Mr Padukone (GM of Corporate Planning for BSNL) about the same, and that's one of their biggest hurdles. BSNL asks for RoW and the municipalities ask them to pay, but the amount they want to pay is zero, so RoW is not granted.

I can't say for sure, but I think maybe Pankaj is probably just working with too little information or is misinterpreting what some people have told him and/or what the documentation says. Who knows. I know I've made several mistakes myself, but I've been accepting when someone has corrected me - I can't safely say the same in this case.

But I should stop trying to educate him on the facts and let him find out the hard way, because as I mention in the forums (and in this chat), there's just too much that is unanswered and there are too many other problems with what's being discussed.